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Convincing your MEPs to stop worrying and love higher ventilation rates?

Z Smith

Principal | Director of Sustainability & Building Performance

Eskew+Dumez+Ripple

LEEDuser Premium Member

4 thumbs up

December 19, 2017

The results from the "CogFx" study are compelling, showing that people in environments with low VOCs and low ambient CO2 levels score higher on tests of cognitive function. Specifically, they show that providing 40cfm of outdoor air per (actual live) occupant results in significantly higher scores than even the "Enhanced Ventilation" scheme of LEED / WELL (which would provide more like 22 cfm/occ).

We've adopted the goal of slipping this into all our projects, but get push-back from every single MEP we work with (even those renowned for green design). I've gotten to the point of doing heating/cooling load and energy use calcs myself to (lovingly) confront the engineers and convince them that (with energy recovery) the loads aren't that onerous and the energy impacts are small.

Is anyone else out there having similar experiences? I'm interested in potentially building a Greenbuild 2018 session around this.

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Luke Leung

Principal

Skidmore, Owings & Merrill LLP

LEEDuser Basic Member

0 thumbs up

Tue, 12/19/2017 - 21:25

Like the idea. We have been trying to give the largest "breathe of fresh air" possible at design and all days - not a slam dunk. Tall buildings may need floor by floor intake to relieve the concerns about shaft space - not an easy discussion when the fresh air shaft takes 2 times the vertical area in multiple floors.

Shawn Hesse

Vice President, ESG Strategy

JLL

LEEDuser Basic Member

0 thumbs up

Tue, 12/19/2017 - 21:50

Hi Z - I have had the exact same experience with projects that I have worked on, so I think a Greenbuild session would be a really good idea!

Pauline Souza

Partner, Sustainability Director

WRNS Studio

LEEDuser Basic Member

0 thumbs up

Tue, 12/19/2017 - 21:55

As this is hitting our client’s desk, we have experienced the same questions from our clients when they look at our team’s designs that target 15 cfm or .3 cfm/sf. And then there is what is in Well. Also interested in what you are all experiencing with consultants (is it the low energy vs health conversation again?) Fro

Luke Leung

Principal

Skidmore, Owings & Merrill LLP

LEEDuser Basic Member

0 thumbs up

Tue, 12/19/2017 - 23:08

Also should include functions of different spaces. Performance and better cognitive activities in office is good, in general. Performance in sleeping quarters may take on a different meaning (I was thinking deep rest), etc. Ventilation rates should be different in functionally different spaces.

Z Smith

Principal | Director of Sustainability & Building Performance

Eskew+Dumez+Ripple

LEEDuser Premium Member

4 thumbs up

Tue, 12/19/2017 - 23:29

Clark: Kim Shinn is usually correct, but there are times when engineers need to be sent to the facility the TV character Maude described as "The Massachusetts State Home for the Totally Wrong." I'm seeing EUI impacts of 1-3 kBtu/sf/yr (that is, almost in the noise for most buildings) from providing these higher levels of ventilation, at which point we have to ask "What are buildings for, anyway, if not to provide a good environment for people?" Luke: Do you have recommendations of good studies about air quality and sleep?

Kjell Anderson

Director of Sustainable Design

LMN Architects

LEEDuser Basic Member

4 thumbs up

Tue, 12/19/2017 - 23:44

Maybe someone has already pointed this out, but outdoor air rate is simply a proxy for many things, including maintaining healthy CO2 levels in buildings. As outdoor CO2 levels goes up from +/- 250 ppm pre industrial to +/- 400 ppm now, it is also estimated to increase 2 ppm/ year but could be accelerating or decelerating. This means in 50 years ppm could be 500. The Harvard study noted that people are sensitive to CO2 levels – executive function goes down with higher CO2 levels. (What were the CO2 levels in the study?) ‘Outdoor air requirements’ are simply to dilute indoor air to maintain CO2 levels using outdoor air. Within the lifetimes of our buildings if the outdoor air goes from 350 ppm (when codes to written) to 500 ppm, we will need increasing levels of outdoor air to properly dilute the indoor air. -Kjell From:

Luke Leung

Principal

Skidmore, Owings & Merrill LLP

LEEDuser Basic Member

0 thumbs up

Wed, 12/20/2017 - 00:12

If you are curious where the current ventilation rates come from - it is based on people do not smell each other (Bioeffluents)!!! You will think we can do better than that...The below link also acknowledges CO2 is not a good indicator of indoor air quality. FYI, ASHRAE is discussing other criteria to drive the ventilation rates... https://www.ashrae.org/File%20Library/docLib/Technology/FAQs/TC-04.03-FAQ-35.pdf. "...Laboratory and field studies have shown that this rate of ventilation will dilute odors from human bioeffluents to levels that will satisfy a substantial majority (about 80%) of unadapted persons (visitors) in a space." https://ehp.niehs.nih.gov/1104789/

Kjell Anderson

Director of Sustainable Design

LMN Architects

LEEDuser Basic Member

4 thumbs up

Wed, 12/20/2017 - 00:41

So we talk about thermal comfort and fresh air but should be talking about olfactory comfort. Do I smell a Greenbuild presentation in the works?

Lance Hosey

Chief Impact Officer | Design Principal

HMC Architects

LEEDuser Basic Member

0 thumbs up

Wed, 12/20/2017 - 00:57

FYI, there’s a chapter in my book about design for non-visual senses, and I wrote a related NY Times piece in 2013 about the olfactory sense of place: “Scent and the City” https://www.nytimes.com/subscription/mobilegateway.html?EXIT_URI=https%3A%2F%2Fmobile.nytimes.com%2F2013%2F10%2F27%2Fopinion%2Fsunday%2Fscent-and-the-city.html On Tue

Blake Jackson

Director of Sustainability

NORR

LEEDuser Expert

7 thumbs up

Wed, 12/20/2017 - 01:33

Luke, So, you’re saying that culturally, if we could get used to each other’s “bio-effluescence” (a new word), then, we could also solve sustainability and health issues? Now, that would make for an interesting AND FUNNY “interactive” GreenBuild session, hopefully with full audience participation :) Sorry all, but it’s after hours EST! Miss You All, Blake Jackson, AIA, LEED/WELL Faculty, Fitwel Ambassador Sustainability Design Leader, Associate Stantec Architecture 311 Summer Street Boston, MA 02210-1723 O: (617) 234-3194 M: (706) 280-3957 Blake.Jackson@stantec.com [Stantec] The content of this email is the confidential property of Stantec and should not be copied, modified, retransmitted, or used for any purpose except with Stantec's written authorization. If you are not the intended recipient, please delete all copies and notify us immediately. ü Please consider the environment before printing this email. From: Luke Leu

Mike Manzi

Bora Architects

LEEDuser Basic Member

0 thumbs up

Wed, 12/20/2017 - 01:46

I attended a session at AIA Atlanta a few years ago about biomes. Charlie Brown from the University of Oregon did a study of a campus building that was mostly naturally ventilated on one side, and mostly mechanically ventilated on the other. The biome DNA on the naturally ventilated side matched the DNA of soil and plants. The biome DNA on the mechanically ventilated side matched human biology. So, we’re sharing more than our bioeffluents. I haven’t followed up on this study, but perhaps someday we’ll use microbiome balance instead of CO2 balance as the measure of healthy indoor environments. Mike Manzi RA Bora Architects 503 226 1575 From:

Brian Feagans

Strategic Design Advisor

Ratcliff

LEEDuser Basic Member

0 thumbs up

Wed, 12/20/2017 - 02:15

And don't forget that acceptable norms can vary significantly by culture. Here in India, I frequently come face to face with the “bio-effluescence” of others - in all forms. I occasionally hear Indians talk about it as a negative, but the motivation to change the norm doesn't seem to be very strong. Brian Feagans RATCLIFF

Christy Collins

Davis Partnership.com

LEEDuser Basic Member

0 thumbs up

Wed, 12/20/2017 - 02:34

CO2 levels in the cogfx study were 550ppm when decline in cognitive function was estimated at 8% or so. We use the cogfx study + information about the rate at which ambient, outdoor / atmospheric CO2 levels are rising in discussions with receptive clients to connect global scale energy conservation as a priority with the tangible scale of occupant health and wellness. It resonates with some better than others, of course. Since we find issues of individual health to be of higher interest with a significant subset of clients than community or global scale considerations, the cogfx study has proved valuable making the broader discussion more relatable for some, and as a result more interesting. Christy

Varun Kohli

LEEDuser Basic Member

0 thumbs up

Wed, 12/20/2017 - 15:20

C02 levels can be mitigated thru technologies such as an Active bioremediation system (being developed at CASE) besides simply increasing ventilation rates - thus addressing both enhanced cognitive performance of occupants and energy efficiency. Bringing the bio-ecosystem indoors and if designed well can have added benefits - biophilia, olfactory, aesthetics and more.

Berardo Matalucci

Building Technology Specialist

SHoP Architects

LEEDuser Basic Member

0 thumbs up

Wed, 12/20/2017 - 16:10

The AMPS system, developed at CASE-RPI, has been also successfully installed in a building designed by SOM, PSAC II in the Bronx (NY). Additionally, this research has become a formal company FABS. https://www.nytimes.com/2016/05/12/nyregion/an-imposing-building-that-hums-with-life-saving-capacity.html?_r=0 https://www.wsj.com/articles/the-best-architecture-of-2017-buildings-of-quiet-ambition-1513028870

Luke Leung

Principal

Skidmore, Owings & Merrill LLP

LEEDuser Basic Member

0 thumbs up

Wed, 12/20/2017 - 20:10

Love this amazing group! We cannot live without air in a few minutes – should be fundamental for human beings to thrive...however ventilation experts cannot come to consensus on the holistic parameters that impact ventilation amount (Wellness, Performance, Rest, Exercise, Microbial type, Microbial count, Oxygen level...), it was defaulted back to older matrix – bioeffluents and CO2. Agreed with multiple comments here regarding leadership and pressure to create a better world where we breathe better - likely more nature. We breathe slower when we are in deep sleep but CO2 matters. https://sleepfoundation.org/how-sleep-works/what-happens-when-you-sleep

Clark Brockman

Principal

SERA Architects

LEEDuser Basic Member

0 thumbs up

Thu, 12/21/2017 - 00:41

Here are my notes to the [very related] GSA Greenbuild session (including a link to pics of many of the slides):
2017 1108 Greenbuild CBrockman notes GSA preso on an Evidenced based framework for health.pdf

Z Smith

Principal | Director of Sustainability & Building Performance

Eskew+Dumez+Ripple

LEEDuser Premium Member

4 thumbs up

Thu, 12/21/2017 - 16:52

Fantastically useful notes & slide-grabs, Clark! I especially liked the slide in the middle of the deck showing what Mara Baum has described as "the CO2 bubble" of our own exhalations that surrounds us in still air, that can be mitigated through enhanced air mixing (fans, etc.) I think there's a huge amount of thinking to be done about how each human generates a sort of microclimate around them with higher humidity and CO2 levels, radiating into the local environment--we are active participants in the indoor environment, not passive recipients of whatever the MEP chooses to deliver.

Luke Leung

Principal

Skidmore, Owings & Merrill LLP

LEEDuser Basic Member

0 thumbs up

Thu, 12/21/2017 - 18:32

Echo Z's comment whole heartedly. Thank so much Clark for the wonderful Holiday gift! Like the idea that we are so connect - our body shapes ("bubble") the environment holistically with thermal, VOC, CO2, microbial content, and our environment shapes us back; day and night are not decoupled, but a connected whole. Reminds me of the Hebrew idea a day actually starts at nightfall - rest before work.

Ilana Judah

LEEDuser Basic Member

23 thumbs up

Tue, 12/26/2017 - 21:29

We have been looking at the enVerid HLR system as a means to improve IAQ (including C02) while reducing outside air and energy consumption. Has anyone had experience with this technology? Critiques? https://www.enverid.com/hlr-technology

Pauline Souza

Partner, Sustainability Director

WRNS Studio

LEEDuser Basic Member

0 thumbs up

Thu, 12/28/2017 - 17:09

Wow Clark, this is wonderful Thank you so much

Z Smith

Principal | Director of Sustainability & Building Performance

Eskew+Dumez+Ripple

LEEDuser Premium Member

4 thumbs up

Thu, 12/28/2017 - 18:46

Ilana--We are working with an MEP who got the enVerid air scrubbers into another project now under construction. They shared data showing that the efficacy of the scrubbers is greatest when working at a large differential--that is, they are more effective at scrubbing high CO2 levels down to medium CO2 levels than scrubbing medium CO2 levels down to low CO2 levels. So the manufacturer's product literature shows a "High CO2 target" of 1000ppm and a "Low CO2 target" of 600ppm. In light of CogFx, we're trying to set the *high* target (max) to 600ppm. If our target is 600ppm, a good ERV may be a better way to achieve this goal a the same first cost & energy cost. Note that these systems get recharged by flowing outdoor air over the materials--in a sense, they work because the CO2 load is generated during the day in a workplace and you can re-charge the media by flushing them with outdoor air at night. These systems also are designed to scrub a lot of other pollutants too, and may be worth considering for other reasons. Interesting to track...

Ilana Judah

LEEDuser Basic Member

23 thumbs up

Thu, 12/28/2017 - 19:32

Ah! The devil is in the details. Thanks Z! Ilana Judah, AIA, OAQ, LEED AP BD+C, CPHD Principal, Director of Sustainability FXFOWLE D +1.646.292.8116 | T +1.212.627.1700