TallyCat & EC3 help?!

Hi Sara, 

We're in the same boat. Also trying the licensed version of Tally, and starting oneclickLCA. 
Happy to swap notes and questions!

Indu

Hi all, We have used Tally for a while but have not gotten into TallyCat. We also got OneClick this year and have had a lot of questions. I would also be interested in swapping notes / a support group. I'd also like to learn more about how TallyCat is going for others.

I am interested in joining this chat. I've made a limited attempt with tallyCAT but found it problematic.  I have resorted to exporting directly from Tally to EC3.  I would very much like to learn what others are doing and share our experiences.

I would love to join in this conversation.  Right now, we are using Tally and EC3, and I'd love to hear what's working and not working for others.  Happy to share our exeriences, as well.

I'd also like to join this chat.  I'm working on a deep dive into embodied carbon on one of our recent projects as a way to compare tools.  Here are some takeaways we have found, and I'd love to learn whether others are seeing similar results:

• When using TallyCat we were getting extremely high volumes of concrete - 24 times what Tally was saying, and roughly 17 times what our cost estimator had estimated for the job.  I'm new to TallyCat, so it is very possible I'm not using it in the way it is intended to be used, but it is worth noting that Tally was relatively close on the first try (within 30%) of the actual estimated concrete volume.
• As most of you probably know, Tally predominantly uses industry averages to assign GWPs to materials, and many of these EPDs are now 5-10+ years old.  So we modeled some typical materials in Tally and compared to current Industry wide EPDs as well as some examples of product specific EPDs.  Generally speaking, some materials were still closely aligned to current EPDs (drywall, sheathing, some insulations), some were off by 30-40% (concrete, depending on mix design and what version of NRMCA you are comparing to), and some were off by 2-5 times (XPS insulation, mineral wool). 
• We tried using Tally to export directly to EC3 - for certain materials (concrete and structural steel) this worked great, and lets us assign a wide range of current product specific EPDs.  But it also seemed to drop other materials entirely (especially division 07 materials).
• We have also tested OneClick - while its EPD database is extensive and current, it is not easy to verify whether it is capturing appropriate volumes of materials, and also requires large amounts of time to make custom assemblies for anything made of more than 1 material (composite deck, metal stud walls, etc).  
• Lastly, it's a very different intended use, but I wanted to give a shout out for the EPIC tool, since it seems to align fairly well with the in-depth LCAs we have done, and gives great graphic information to compare whole life carbon impact with a fraction of the effort as running a LCA.

In short, there is currently not a perfect tool that accurately and quickly estimates the quantities of material used and assigns current EPD information.  My personal preference is to use Tally to generate quantities, and to post-process the data for materials that we know are no longer aligned with current EPDs.  For me this is the best combination of reasonably efficient and reasonably accurate (well, as much as possible within the large margin of error in embodied carbon analysis).

For the Embodied Carbon Challenge, Built Enviornment Plus started a group where we can discuss questions related to tally and Oneclick LCA. This group is a little less active after the submission deadline, but good place to ask questions. lca-software-help (Channel) - Embodied Carbon Challenge - Slack. Slack channel for the same. Hope this helps.

We use both TallyLCA and OneClick for our in-house LCAs. A few thoughts on when we use each -

• Regardless of the tool, take-offs are a pain in the butt. This is, in one sense, a problem with the LCA tools but, in a larger sense, really just an issue with BIM data management. Setting expectations with teams has helped remarkably here. We've found that TallyLCA has the best assumptions "out of the box" and we'll use it in situations when the goal is getting something done efficiently. Like Ryan suggests above, getting a good BoM typically requires some cross-references between estimates, talking to consultants, and some hair-pulling ...
  • Similar to Ryan, we also use TallyLCA to do material quantity take-offs. It's really good at that! When doing wbLCA submissions for LEED, we then will import those take-offs to OneClick to addd specific materials and have more fine-grained control over modeling assumptions.
• One nice and unique thing about TallyLCA (and Athena, but I don't really see that being used?) is that the tool actually don't use EPD data, but have harmonized background datasets. This helps to avoid a lot of the weirdness that can arise with EPD-based analysis when EPDs for different materials are governed by diverging product category rules (which is a potential risk with TallyCAT). But ... it also means that you can't enter product-specific data.
  • This is probably a good guard rail for junior designers or people new to LCA, but is obviously a limitation for others.
  • There's a current effort between Building Transparency, Ramboll, and a smattering of academics to create an open access dataset (working title is ODCi) to replace the data at the core of TallyLCA (currently provided by Sphera). Once this is complete, my understanding is that TallyLCA will be offered for a much lower cost (or for free) as the current price is mostly determined by Sphera's data licensing fees.

I heard from a little bird recently that HOK and Gensler have internal tooks to automate takeoffs and report generation with TallyLCA (using Dynamo?). Can anyone at those firms confirm or deny? If it's not highly proprietary, I'd love to hear about how it works!

We have been using Tally and then playing with Tally cat and EC3 to add another layer to results. I highly recommend having this conversation on the CLF Community page, we have found it really helpful. Latest LCA Data & Tools topics - Carbon Leadership Forum Community Kristen Fritsch AIA LEED AP BD+C WELL AP Senior Associate Sustainability Coordinator ELKUS MANFREDI ARCHITECTS [tel] 617.695.7954 [email] kfritsch@elkus-manfredi.com

Hi folks, This is a great conversation, and one where there seem to be more questions than answers. If the CLF Community page fulfills this need, that's awesome. If you'd like to also convene a Working Group within SDL to get together, compare notes, and maybe share some findings out to the rest of the network, that's also an option. Feel free to contact me directly if you're interested in leading/convening such a group, and we can help you get that set up. Nadav <nadav@buildinggreen.com>

I'm also interested in sharing notes and/or joining a working group. I'm familiar with OneClick LCA and am planning to explore other options. Has anyone here used the carbon analysis in Autodesk Insight and have feedback to share? Also returning to Sara's original comment - if the project is pursuing ILFI Zero Carbon (ZC) certification, then ILFI requires embodied carbon accounting for stages A1-A5, while EC3 only accounts for A1-A3. Is there a typical process for post-processing EC3 results to add on impacts for A4-A5? I've typically seen projects that pursue ILFI ZC using other whole-building LCA tools instead of EC3.

Re: the A4 and A5 impacts, we've had multiple contractors (at least 2!) sign up for tracking this data specific to the project. ILFI in a ZC kickoff last acknowledged this was the gold standard, but they are also open to other sources when this is impossible, or presumably to fill gaps, presumably from other sources in a Frankenstein LCA approach. Of course this latter process has much less potential for optimization or learning; to this point, the one completed project where we had specific data, the project site impacts were much higher than would otherwise be predicted.

Reinforcing Chris' point on A5 impacts being higher than is typically assumed, SCL is starting to collect this data from participating companies in the Contractor's Commitment, and we did a pretty in-depth report on the messy data situation around it last year: The Missing Embodied Carbon Link: Construction

Hopping in to add one more venue for discussion of LCA Tools - the Seattle CLF Hub started an LCA tool user group to crowdsource similar questions.  These meetups have developed a much more robust ecosystem of LCA work here in Seattle, but as meetings are online, we're happy to share what we've learned outside of the area!  Meetings are on the first Thursday of every month, at 12 noon Pacific, and the format is typically an "office hours" style.  Bring your questions, and we'll do our best to work through them with you. Unfortunately, the next meeting falls on the 4th of July, so we won't be meeting then, but if you're still interested in August, we'd love to have you all.  Link to the meeting series is below:     https://us02web.zoom.us/meeting/register/tZEqdOutqz4qG9G0dkbtwxK2VRFd5CEtZr-F#/registration  

Thanks Justin.  I will call in for August session.   Sara and Indu, I would love to join a call if I can make it. The accuracy of TallyCAT varies.  Like all the experts mentioend, the take off between TallyCAT and Revit model is not quite synced (our revit guru looked into it and said he can't revamp the Revit model standard to align iwth TallyCAT nomenclature).  But I think we can definitely improve the process and ask TallyCAT collectively for more guidance.  A small group of us used TallyLCA for a few years frist. Then We swtiched to TallyCAT two years ago for firmwide 2030 Committment reporting, thinking that TallyCAT is free, will cover A4-A5 and more soon. But it still hasn't covere A4-A5 yet. Anyone has insider track info when they will complete the feature?  Now with CalGreen embodied carbon compliance is kicking in, we will might have to switch back to TallyLCA since TallyCAT isn't listed as CalGreen Compliant tools. I am curous if anyone done comparison study of Athena and OneClick LCA-Planetary? (both free and compliant)    

Thanks so much for prompting this discussion, Sara! I've been digging into LCA tools, evaluating, experimenting, etc. for the last 4 years. I'm excited to see all the different conversations already happening, and I look forward to joining those. If a group starts up through SDL, I'd be interested in that as well.

Loving all of this. Chiming in with a couple things. First - a preview/plug for folks in the Northeast. CLF NYC & CLF Boston/Northeast are teaming up to start an LCA tool group in the same vein as the Seattle group that Justin mentioned. The first meeting is going to be late July (tentatively the 23rd). Once there is an invite, I'll post that here. Quick sidebar for CLF NYC: if any New Yorkers here aren't involved and want to be, please ping me - jshiman@wrnsstudio.com. Second - WRNS has decided that there is sufficient benefit to the paid tools to stick to TallyLCA. Our take on TallyLCA - it does a great job of material quantity takeoff for major materials, and while the database isn't perfect, it provides sufficient detail to understand if your embodied carbon is high, medium, or low, and it allows you to compare between options using consistent materials/assemblies for a design study or a baselining effort for LEED, Zero Carbon, or other reporting. EC3 is great from a construction standpoint and for seeing what materials/suppliers are good from an EC standpoint, but doesn't help as much as we'd like to understand design decision impacts. In our testing of TallyCAT, which admittedly is a year or so out of date, we found it to be largely a Revit -> EC3 export function, but doesn't offer that much more than that. We saw similar issues to others here with material quantity discrepancies, and we needed to input information about materials that was more specific than what we knew during design. We have not dipped our toe into OneClick, though it's rising up my list of tools-to-try. I'm curious if someone who uses or has used both OneClick and TallyLCA extensively has a pro/con list for both that they could share, but that gets away from the specific question you led with, Sara. Jeremy

This thread seems to be quickly going in the direction of the Project Process thread :) 

Great to read everyone's feedback. Our experience is similar in that TallyLCA has been easier to use and organize information and output from compared to TallyCAT, given that most of our revit models and protocols are not yet set up for the WBLCA process. 

While we work through the ins and outs of how to use these tools, I have to constantly remind myself to zoom out and address the larger issue, of getting all the designers who work on projects to integrate embodied carbon impacts into their thought and design process. EPIC + EC3 have started to feel in the project process, like the equivalent of what a  Fitbit+ smart scale does to someone who is just beginning to articulate fitness/wellness goals. A quick snapshot to visualize/ quantify what might be achieved. 

Raising my hand to be part of the working group if one does emerge from this conversation. 

Indu

Late to the party, but interested in joining a working/discussion group if one forms!  We've been testing out OneClick LCA for 2+ years now, but our in-house Construction arm prefers to use EC3 so we're curious to hear other groups' insights on TallyLCA/TallyCAT.

I'd be interested in joining this discussion as well, thanks. We're developing a workflow to prepare our models for quantity takeoffs that can be used in OneClick WBLCAs (by consultants). We do less in-house Tally analysis but I'd love to see more of this.

I think your thought on CLF being the best route is spot on. In working w/ some of their staff on the LEED v5 Embodied carbon credit, they really do know the tools inside and out, and our firm has found their forum to be the most helpful and inclusive in that anyone from office can ask questions on it. The help we have received from others using the forum has been very specific and thorough. SDL is limited in that it really is only 1 person from each firm (or maybe a few for those big firms) are on the platform. So with all of the great info that has been shared on this platform about this topic thus far, since no one else in my firm has access, it falls on me to gather the info and pass on to my team members who are knee-deep in studies. If we were all more plugged into the CLF forum and sharing what we are learning, we could be helping many others who are either from smaller firms or not participating in the SDL network. Kristen Fritsch AIA LEED AP BD+C WELL AP Senior Associate Sustainability Coordinator ELKUS MANFREDI ARCHITECTS [tel] 617.695.7954 [email] kfritsch@elkus-manfredi.com