In order to show compliance with CEN standard for IEQp1, what exactly do I upload? Is it sufficient with a homemade tool that has the exact same parameters as the VRP calculator with the only difference that I swap the required ventilation rates for the ones in CEN? In CEN there are eight different areas: single office, landscaped office, conference room, auditorium, restaurant, classroom, kindergarten and department store. Only the first five of CEN are applicable to an office building. Compare this with ASHRAE’s sixty-three different types of areas! And for IEQc2 I will still go 30 % above ASHRAE since otherwise I’d be over-ventilating a building which leads to unnecessary use of energy. Right? Anyone outside the US who has tried the ACP with CEN standard? Please give me guidance!
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Susann Geithner
PrincipalEmerald Built Environments
1297 thumbs up
March 14, 2012 - 2:58 pm
You will probably be one of the first to try this. Have you looked at the LEED Online forms for ACPs in regards to what's required?
I know that the USGBC is working really hard to give you all more guidance in that regards. I have done a lot of projects in Europe and dealt with the US vs Europe differences and am helping the USBGC to figure out a good way of comparing the standards.
If I were you I would document CEN compliance in regards to the same criteria, which ASHRAE is looking at such as outside air supply per room. Use the CEN room types. But pay also close attention to the other requirements in 62.1. such as toilet exhausts and controls.
Good luck with your project.
Maria Porter
Sustainability specialistSkanska Sweden
268 thumbs up
March 15, 2012 - 1:44 am
Susann, How would you do regarding IEQc2? We want to do that one according to ASHRAE.
And where can I find the LEED Online forms for ACPs? I have never seen one of those and have no idea where to find them. If there was one for IEQp1 it would really help. Currently we are making our own tables. Thanks!
Eric Johnson
271 thumbs up
March 15, 2012 - 3:40 am
Maria,
The ACP forms can be found at the USGBC web site under each rating system information page.
For example see: Resources-International-ACP Documentation Guidance for Projects outside the U.S. (PDF) -- Step-by-step guidance on documenting compliance with the Alternative Compliance Paths (ACPs) for each credit.
http://www.usgbc.org/DisplayPage.aspx?CMSPageID=220
If you review the Submittal Guidance for using Alternative Compliance Paths for projects Outside the U.S. it will tell you how to document compliance with the CEN standards.
Maria Porter
Sustainability specialistSkanska Sweden
268 thumbs up
March 15, 2012 - 4:12 am
Eric, thank you for showing me where the forms are. Unfortunately there are no forms for IEQp1 and c2, which we need. The step-by-step guidance I had already. The problem with the guidance is that it is unclear how to show compliance. It says "upload, as needed, alternative tables or calculations". We have now made our own calculator. However ASHRAE and CEN have a very different way of showing things so it's a bit fuzzy what they want. We will just have to submit and get feedback.
Does anyone know if there will be "real" LEED Online forms for all ACPs? Like a button or check box in the current form if you want the ACP for international projects?
Sean Fish
Project Manager, LEEDUSGBC
52 thumbs up
March 15, 2012 - 9:02 am
Hi Maria,
We are currently working on integrating the ACP language into our existing LEED Online forms. We will be sure to update you here on LEED User when those forms are available. Thanks for your question!
Susann Geithner
PrincipalEmerald Built Environments
1297 thumbs up
March 15, 2012 - 10:41 am
Maria, If you are planing on using ASHRAE for IEQ c2 than you might as well use ASHRAE for IEQ P1 also, because you will determine minimum compliance for ASHRAE 62.1-2007 for IEQ P1 and than show how much you are exceeding it.
Some critical items are toilets / restrooms, waste rooms and operating rooms, which require lower outside air rates/exhaust rates in CEN vs ASHRAE, so pay attention to that.
If you are using a lower air quality class in the building for CEN compliance than you certainly have to look at more space types and increase their air supply.
Good luck with your project.
Maria Porter
Sustainability specialistSkanska Sweden
268 thumbs up
March 16, 2012 - 3:43 am
Sean, thank you. Looking forward to that!
Susann, we have 100 % outdoor air throughout the building. No problem complying with CEN standard as it is has the status of a Swedish standard. The problem with using ASHRAE for IEQp1, for several of my projects, is that they have garages. And by checking the box that we comply with ASHRAE sections 4 through 7 we would say that we have exhaust rates of 3,7 l/s and m2 in the garage. No Swedish project that I know of would have exhaust rates that high. The rest of ASHRAE is not that hard for our projects to comply with. So we want to use CEN for that reason.
Also see my thread on: http://www.leeduser.com/credit/NC-2009/IEQp1 from sep 27, 2011.
Susann Geithner
PrincipalEmerald Built Environments
1297 thumbs up
March 16, 2012 - 10:10 am
We had that issue also in some projects. First thing you want to look at is, if your garage is open to the surroundings, because it is a bit different if that the case. We have had projects with no exhaust but jet vans to move the air through the garage to the outside.
Another way is to include the volume of the smoke exhaust system in the garage in the equation, which you can do if it's triggered by CO2 (not just CO) sensors. That basically a two stage demand controlled ventilation.
It's really a common problem and mostly results from the big differences in car emissions in the US vs. Europe. In Europe there is no need for that much exhaust, because the emissions aren't that high. In the US you really need that kind of exhaust rate. I hope that helps.
Lauri Tähtinen
Consultant19 thumbs up
March 23, 2012 - 8:09 am
Hi Susann,
Did I got this right: If my underground parking has demand controlled ventilation with maximum exhaust rate over 3.7 l/s,m2 it would fulfill the requirements of ASHRAY, even though the average exhaust rate would be much lower?
Susann Geithner
PrincipalEmerald Built Environments
1297 thumbs up
March 28, 2012 - 2:16 pm
Yes. If your system can handle 0.75 cfm per sf even if the CO2 sensors make it run at much lower levels all the time, it is OK for ASHRAE. Just make sure to set CO2 levels triggering the sensor appropriately.
Elodie DUMAS
ALTO Ingénierie18 thumbs up
June 4, 2012 - 8:49 am
Hello Sean,
I am currently working with LEED certification in France for an office building.
It is mentioned in the ACP guidance for IEQ P1 :
“For “Upload IEQp1-1”, upload the ventilation rate calculations for all applicable spaces including the design
outdoor ventilation rate based on the requirements of Annex B of Comité Européen de Normalisation (CEN)
Standard EN 15251 ».
As Maria said before, CEN standard has 8 areas where ASHRAE 62.10 has more than sixty ; therefore is it compliant to provide an homemade tool with same parameters as the VRP calculator (based on this 8 areas) ?
Morever, do we need to comply with the entire ASHRAE 62.10 or just with the ventilation rate ?
(as mentioned in the ACP guidance for IEQ P1 : “Under “Mechanical Ventilation”, check the box with the declaration of “Mechanical ventilation systems are designed
using local code, which is more stringent than the ASHRAE Standard 62.1-2007 Ventilation Rate Procedure”.” ; this sentence is quite disturbing…)
Thanks for your answer,
Maria Porter
Sustainability specialistSkanska Sweden
268 thumbs up
June 4, 2012 - 9:02 am
Review Response to ACP for IEQp1
I have received response for my project now. The home made tool was accepted! The only comment we got, that resulted in “pending”, is that they wanted the Ventilation Systems Designer sign the ASHRAE-box although we are not using ASHARE. I have no idea why. So we are going to sign, but write in special circumstances that our signature means that we comply with CEN and not ASHRAE as far as we are concerned. (Of course we comply with the whole of ASHRAE too, except for exhaust rates in the garage, which we refuse to alter).
Just wanted to let you all know.
Jean Marais
b.i.g. Bechtold DesignBuilder Expert832 thumbs up
June 4, 2012 - 9:22 am
The known get-around for exhaust rates in the parking garage has been to install a CO2 Demand Ventilation System. Usually those axial "jet" fans are part of the smoke exhaust scheme.
Elodie DUMAS
ALTO Ingénierie18 thumbs up
June 4, 2012 - 9:42 am
Thanks for this prompt answer Maria,
So you use ASHRAE for both IEQ P1 and IEQ C2 or only CEN standard ? i didn't quite understand your last sentence : "Of course we comply with the whole of ASHRAE too, except for exhaust rates in the garage, which we refuse to alter"
Thanks
Maria Porter
Sustainability specialistSkanska Sweden
268 thumbs up
June 4, 2012 - 9:51 am
Loïc, in this case we used CEN on both. The problem with garages is that ASHRAE uses four times higher exhaust rates than we do here. We have lower emissions, and in a cold country we can’t over-ventilate. This is the only reason we use CEN instead of ASHRAE. Since we have 100 % outside air in our offices it is no problem complying with ASHRAE in all other senses.
Jean, in another of my projects we said that we comply with everything in ASHRAE, except for in the garage, where we instead install CO-monitors, (which we always have). This was also ok according to reviewers.
So we are just testing options for the same problem that I have in all my inner city projects and that has caused us a lot of concern
Eric Johnson
271 thumbs up
June 4, 2012 - 10:09 am
Maria,
While the vehicle emissions might be lower in Europe every time I leave a parking garage here I always seem to take with me a cough, teary eyes, and "eau de exhaust" on my clothes. Maybe it's just my allergies?