Forum discussion

Plastic Pipe reality check

Hi folks,

I'm looking into lower-carbon pipe options for HVAC and plumbing. The MEP 2040 has slides from a Buro Happold study in 2020 showing PEX to be much lower in embodied carbon than copper, which is unsurprising. CPVC is also a lower-carbon option.

But PVC has its issues and neither PVC nor PEX are recyclable (especially if the PEX has an aluminum oxygen diffusion layer, which it needs in radiant heating/cooling applications).

We've published various pieces over the years about polyethylene and polypropylene alternatives that seem like win-wins: low carbon, relatively clean as plastics go, and recyclable. They claim to have lots of certifications and code approvals and to be competitive in terms of cost. My question is—is there some practical reason that they are not more widely used, other than the usual "we've never done it that way before" inertia problem? Is there a reason you, or your engineers, would be hesitant to specify them?

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Tue, 08/08/2023 - 19:51

Hi Nadav,  I posed your question to some of my trusted internal engineers who are sustainable design advocates and here is what they had to share: From David Klug our Mechanical Leader in LA who now co-leads mechanical across our firm and who is LEED AP and LFA and I'm trying to get to join SMEPL: “Plastic” pipe has come a long way in terms of performance. From my experience there’s three main reasons why it isn’t implemented more. Performance: depending on the type of material and size the pipe can handle different combinations of temperature and pressure. Historically this has been lower than what equivalent size steel/copper pipe can handle. However, manufacturers are constantly working to improve this, in particular for heating systems. Plastic pipe is usually fusion welded, which can be different than what contractors are used to. There’s also a high initial cost for them to get trained and the correctly installation equipment. However most large contractors (at least in CA) have already been working with it for years. It’s really not too difficult, but a completely different process than what they may be used to. For non-buried piping it doesn’t have the same rigidity as steel/copper so it needs to be supported more frequently than the metal equivalent, which can end up being more expensive. For me, I’ve be defaulting to plastic pipe for buried chilled water for the past 5-8 years. For hot water systems (<180F) we’ve been using steel pipe for the main underground lines and PEX piping for branches to buildings. Plastic pipe offers a lot of benefits when used underground in terms of flexibility to slightly adjust the piping around existing constraints. I agree something to consider more as the materials continue to improve. Donovan Aquirre-Rivas who is a more junior engineer in our Chicago office working on many LEED projects had this to add:
  • Code Restrictions:
    • Chicago still doesn’t allow PP-R and PE-RT for domestic (potable) water distribution or water service pipe.
  • Corrosion Concerns
    • For the Aquatherm PP-R piping there are corrosion /premature failure concerns when located downstream of copper piping in domestic hot water systems.
And finally, Kirk Pesta who has been with HED for 20 years in our Detroit office asnd who now co-leads mechanical across the firm with David said:
  1. Plastic pipe cannot be used in air plenums unless it meets the 25/50 ratings of ASTM 84.  Though Spears has a product that does meet ASTM E 84.  Not sure if there are other manufacturers.
  2. Leaching of the chemicals in the domestic water system.
  3. Thermal expansion.  Plastic pipe expands much more than copper or steel.
Hope this helps your gathering of input!

Tue, 08/08/2023 - 20:54

In NYC plastic pipe use has been drastically limited by unions. Mark Ginsberg FAIA, LEED AP Partner Curtis + Ginsberg Architects 55 Broad Street FL8 New York, NY 10004 212 634 1647 Office 212 929 4417 mark@cplusga.com www.cplusga.com This e-mail, including any attachments, is confidential and for the intended recipient only. It may contain proprietary and/or privileged information. If you are not the intended recipient, please notify the sender immediately, do not copy, print, or disclose the information to anyone, and delete all copies of this e-mail and any attachments.

Wed, 08/09/2023 - 18:01

Wow--thank you for collecting this great information, Daniel. And for the tip on NYC, Mark. To keep the sharing alive I did hear from someone about some high-profile and expensive failures of Aquatherm PP pipe, as you mentioned, Daniel. A King County, Washington jail project failure led to an $18m jury verdict against the company! I found this great write-up that explains how complicated the factors are that can lead to that kind of failure.  Also, we've written before about occasional chemical leaching issues with PEX, but it's still used a lot so it seems that those issues have either gotten resolved or they are just rare cases. I am still hopeful about PE-RT pipe for potable water, if we can get the unions/code officials to go along... Anyone else have insights here? Thanks, Nadav

Wed, 08/09/2023 - 23:13

Another aspect of non-oxygen barrier plastic piping is the corrosion of ferrous fittings and equipment such as pumps. Non-barrier piping is typically installed just on potable systems that typically have non-ferrous components anyway. I’m not sure how PP and straight PE fare with regards to oxygen permeability, but that would cause all the balance of system components to change. Most large commercial pumps and accessories have ferrous components. The plastic piping also requires more frequent supports as well, which I have heard can offset the cost savings of the material and joining process. With the recyclability/reuse of copper and steel piping, I’d be interested to see how the life cycle carbon compares. Peter Alspach, PE Principal | Director of Design Performance NBBJ 223 Yale Avenue North SEATTLE WA 98109 Direct: 206.621.2279 Mobile: 206.816.4902 nbbj.com NBBJ is a certified CarbonNeutral® company From

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