I was just thinking. If this Credit allows us to exclude adversiment lighting and theme park lighting why is it so difficult to exclude flag lighting. It just sends such a bad message.
The Micky-D's sign can glow all night without concern but a couple flood lights on the flag is.
Or the castle in the Magic Kingdom can have flood lights but not the flag.
It's just my suggestion to USGBC to reconsider this. Make some people happy. Add an exclusion for flag lighting. If it still bothers you then as a compromise have a max lumen allowance per flag pole. Just an idea.
Theresa Backhus
Sites Technical Specialist, LEEDUSGBC
66 thumbs up
March 14, 2011 - 5:55 pm
Hi Bill-
The lighting experts and I actually just discussed this issue today. The credit language is being revised. Flag lighting, according the new language, is allowed in Zones 3 and 4 as a landscape feature, but not in Zones 1 and 2. The revised credit language will be available for second public comment, so please have a look when that is released in early summer.
Thank you!
Bill Swanson
Sr. Electrical EngineerIntegrated Design Solutions
LEEDuser Expert
734 thumbs up
May 10, 2011 - 10:55 am
I'll try to respond during the second public comment but most schools and government buildings will be in LZ2 locations.
Bill Swanson
Sr. Electrical EngineerIntegrated Design Solutions
LEEDuser Expert
734 thumbs up
August 22, 2011 - 11:34 am
So I'm guessing this flag light exception never got included because it differes from the MLO and we must match the MLO. At least the McDonalds sign is safe.
Jonathan Weiss
Jacobs Buildings & Infrastructure215 thumbs up
September 12, 2011 - 10:23 am
Good point, Bill. Can anyone shed some light (no pun intended) on why an exception for flag lighting (with a lumen allowance, or similar) is not acceptable? I can say it does not help the cause of LEED to have to say to a client, "we can do all of these sustainable things, but we won't get the credit unless we get rid of the flag." Doesn't sell well to many clients, especially government clients. Having the staff to maintain (e.g. raise and lower) the flag every day is often not feasible, and if the flag is left flying, it must be lit.
Bill Swanson
Sr. Electrical EngineerIntegrated Design Solutions
LEEDuser Expert
734 thumbs up
September 21, 2011 - 9:36 am
I searched thru some TAG meeting minutes and there's a brief mention about 2 years ago that downlighting exists for flag poles so no exception is needed. Now I've never seen downlighting on a flag so I googled it and found products like this. http://www.eaglemountainflag.com/cat-flagpole-down-lighting.html
I don't see how any of these products could properly light a flag directly below it. I'd love to see a night time photo of one of these in use.
Regarding the flag lighting they seem to think market transformation is possible to make people change to downlighting. But for advertisment lighting they don't want to shock the market with radical changes.
Glenn Heinmiller
PrincipalLam Partners
100 thumbs up
September 22, 2011 - 6:43 pm
Bill,
Let me jump in here and comment on your comments going back to Mar 04 2011.
1. As you know the credit now regulates signage. There still may be some confusion regarding the exemption for "internally illuminated advertising signage". This is only an exemption to the lighting requirements, not the signage requirements. I think this language will get cleared up for the 3rd PRD.
2. There is no mandate that says LEED "must match the MLO". Certainly it would be ideal to have one light pollution control standard that was used universally (in MLO, IGCC, 189.1, and LEED) But in practice that seems to be not possible for various reasons. For one, LEED is a voluntary rating system not a code, and also SS8 does not exist in isolation and has connections with other credits. The MLO has provided a valuable new method with the BUG system that promises to make it easier to produce the submittals for the credit (no computer simulation required). What we are trying to do is develop a credit that is appropriate for the LEED rating systems.
3. I'm not sure you're right that "most schools and government buildings will be in LZ2". Per 90.1-2010, LZ2 is now "Areas predominantly consisting of residential zoning, neighborhood business districts, light industrial with limited nighttime use and residential mixed use areas." But I guess we'll just have to see how this is interpreted in the ref guide and by GBCI.
4. Pole top flag lighting systems are not viable in my opinion. In the discussions I've participated in I don't think anyone suggested this as a solution to get the credit. The thought process was that flag lighting is possible in LZ3 and LZ4 and in LZ0/1/2 you can lower the flag, leave it up at night (it happens a lot without negative consequence), or light it and not get the credit. So, should there be a special exception for the flag? Just the U.S. Flag? the Canadian flag, State and Provincial flags, war memorials, public monuments? etc.? Where do you draw the line?
Bill Swanson
Sr. Electrical EngineerIntegrated Design Solutions
LEEDuser Expert
734 thumbs up
September 23, 2011 - 9:55 am
Thanks for the response.
1) The signage limit is measured in cd/m2. This is how video monitors are measured. No one is going to know how this applies to traditional signage or how to prove what they have is compliant. How do people use this at time of submittal?
2) The response I got from the 1st public comments is, "TM-15 is the referenced standard and cannot be changed." The may not be anything officially written saying this credit must match the MLO, but it's being implemented as if there were.
3) The majority of schools are in Residential neighborhoods which fits into the definition of LZ2. It will be impossible to convince a reviewer that the definition of LZ3 (none of the above) is more applicable to this neighborhood site when LZ2 already describes the neighborhood.
4) http://www.usgbc.org/ShowFile.aspx?DocumentID=8077
"The TAG discussed how LEED 2009 projects should handle lighting of the
American flag, and determined that flag lighting is not exempt from the
requirements of the credit, and that downlighting may be used."
Then from the public comment responses, "In the interest of minimizing light pollution and since these objects do not have to be illuminated (flags may be taken down during nighttime hours) it has been decided that they should not be given an exemption."
No school or office building has the staff available to raise and lower the flag every day. And if the US flag is up at night it should be illuminated per the Flag Code. There are no flag police true, but I'd rather tell a building owner we can't earn this credit than to suggest not lighting the flag. It's better for our relationship. And some buildings will always have flags flying at night, like Capital buildings.
I don't even see the exemption for LZ3 or LZ4 that was discussed. Maybe if you add these exemption you can allow LZ2 if the light has a full hood. This should reduce sky glow since it's the low angle light that is mostly the cause.
Allowing this for any government flag is easy enough. And the amount of light from these locations is insignificant. Streetlights and advertisement is 80% of the source of light pollution. I doubt flags are more than 0.01%.
Glenn Heinmiller
PrincipalLam Partners
100 thumbs up
September 26, 2011 - 10:56 pm
Bill,
1.
Luminance (cd/m2) is the only reasonable metric. It should be available for LED/video type signs. But yes, it may be an issue for signage guys producing typical backlit sign, channel letters, etc.
This bears more thought.
Just so you know some thinking behind the new signage requirement. There is a big loophole in the credit now because you could have a giant blinding sign on the side of your building and get the point for SS8. Also these "media facades" which are more decoration than information could be called "signage" instead of facade lighting and be exempt.
2.
TM-15 is an IES "Technical Memorandum". TM's are developed and published by the IES. TM-15 is referenced by the MLO, but is not part of it.
3/4.
The idea was that flag lighting would be exempt in LZ3/4 since it would be considered landscape lighting and covered by the exemption: "lighting that is used solely for façade and landscape lighting in lighting zones 3 and 4 and is automatically turned off from midnight until 6 a.m.";
But I realize we added the midnight shutoff - so, oops, I misled you.
Personally I think we need to look at some sort of exemption for national flag lighting in LZ2-4.
Bill Swanson
Sr. Electrical EngineerIntegrated Design Solutions
LEEDuser Expert
734 thumbs up
October 4, 2011 - 9:06 am
1) How about W/sf or W/m2 of illuminated surface area for signage? Most lighting technology is a similar efficacy. In a few years, as LED technology improves, we can lower the limit further.
2) The IES wrote TM-15 and they wrote the MLO around TM-15. They are integral enough to be the same in my mind and apparently in the mind of the person writing the response to my public comment.
3) Thank you.