Exterior doors/windows in v4.1

Hope it's ok to jump in to this thread with similar question but for interior metal insulated doors without CDPH testing. Is it acceptable to deem the metal portion inherently non-emitting (area of both sides) and the insulation (area of both sides) as non-compliant?  Or would the entire assembly be non-compliant?  And would SF documentation then need to consider both sides of both materials? 

We just saw this comment from USGBC Reviewer - Note that interior windows, exterior windows, and window treatments must be included in this credit. They belong in the Wall Panels product category. Windows assemblies are typically not inherently non-emitting because they contain adhesives and sealants.

I see compliance mostly done by cost - and windows will make up more than 25% of the walls category if you have to count everything. Otherwise, how do you break out the cost of glass vs aluminum vs where there might be a sealant? Kawneer curtainwall for example. If you've got to count the whole curtainwall cost for walls, you're screwed. Anyone have any thoughts?

Just had a call with GBCI - they are indeed counting windows/doors as an assembly that requires testing as a whole.

We need to provide feedback as the system is evolving. Anyone interested should use this link to provide comments that exterior windows/doors should be excluded from the walls category, as they are dispropotionately costly for the category and no compliant products exist, making this category unachievable.

https://www.usgbc.org/leedv41/proposal

Thank you, Tommy.  I just provided the feedback at the link.  We also recently got the same comment to include windows in wall systems.  We have asked the question ourselves through a few different avenues at USGBC and are waiting to hear back, but your post today is not welcome news.  I agree this would rule out the wall panels for most projects, which doesn't seem like it should be the case.  I understand certain projects just don't qualify for certain credits, but seems like this would rule out a path for most which I don't think is usually LEED's intent. I will update here if I hear something back on my inquiries.

My question is, regarding commercial windows and curtain walls, these are a combination of glass: inert, and metal, inert, with a factory-applied, anodized or powder-coated finish: low or non-emitting. So it seems like only the caulk could be problematic. Why test everything? What are we protecting occupants from? 

Emily - What type of windows were included in your project?  I have a commerical project that has a lot of curtain wall and foil-faced mineral wool board insulation on the interior side of the glass where there is no vision glass.  I just want to make sure I understand the posts above...per the Wall portion of the EQc2 credit the CW system needs to pass emissions testing, correct?  Has anyone found a system that has emissions testing yet?  The system for the project on which I am working is a unitized system, so it will arrive on site in big sections already glazed and with the backpans and backpan insulation installed.  There will be some sealant at the joints from frame to frame and also where the frame connects to the air barrier.  I am reviewing options for those sealants for compliance, but does the CW frame and glass all need to be calculated by area and logged as non-compliant for emissions testing?

Oh no - this is nuts! Wouldn't factory-coated metal frames also be non-emitting?

It seems that the USGBC just wants us to waste time on sensless calculations to prove our commitment to the cause. 

I got a comment from GBCI as recently as September 2021 telling me NOT to include exterior elements in the Wall Panel category. Although it is in conflict with the reference guide which states "The wall panels product category includes..interior and exterior doors, wall frames, interior and exterior windows." They said - Curtainwall and storefront systems may be excluded from this credit, as they are considered part of the weatherproofing system.

I truly don't know what to think.

To be  productive, and not just vent (sorry folks!) I would suggest that only interior facing sealants be required to be accounted for. Perhaps by linear feet, or by cost as a (relative-weight-determined) proportion of the glazing contract. 

I spoke with usgbc on a similar issue back in May. They looped in three chemical experts who never worked on a LEED project. 

Told them there are impossible requirements in the LEM credit. 

Have followed up multiple times with no response. Will elevate and post response.

after elevation, it looks like there might be two options: 

#1 Make exterior windows/doors optional.

#2 Demostrate on a component basis (e.g. adhesives, sealants, coatings, etc.)

AND

In the meantime, GBCI is not holding v4 projects using LEED v4.1 credit substitution or v4.1 projects registered prior to November 2020 to this requirement. (GBCI guidance: If your project is registered under v4.1 on or after the November 2020 addenda which clarified that exterior windows must be included, then yes, windows (including curtain wall) need to be included in the Wall Panels category, as its components interact with the indoor air. LEED v4 projects using the v4.1 credit substitution and v4.1 projects registered prior to the November 2020 addenda will not be held to this requirement.)  

David, is that guidance published anywhere or did you receive it directly from GBCI?

It is not published yet, because it is not official yet. 

USGBC knows this is a concern and are working to put together language so that teams have a realistic path forward.

I would expect that we see this language in the next issuance of LEED v4.1.

I received the info listed in my Oct 5th post directly from the IEQ specialist within USGBC.

Whew!  For my project the curtain wall and storefront are absolutely acting as the air/vapor barrier at those locations in the exterior envelope.

Thanks, David.

The credit language specifically requires exterior windows and doors to be included. However, my reviews have been inconsistent project by project. Here's how my projects have been reviewed and my 2 cents.

I’ve had the glazing accepted as inherently nonemitting if it’s listed separately from the framing part of the curtainwall/storefront/windows. I've found a few exterior products, mostly doors that do have emissions certificates. I think the exterior fenestration should be excluded rather than listed as inherently nonemitting. Due to their relatively high cost they skew compliance whether they are noncompliant or inherently nonemitting, overshading the actual interior finishes. I like Emily's weighted average idea. I never considered a budget approach on categories other than wet-applied categories.

I have made my suggestions here https://www.usgbc.org/articles/submit-your-ideas-future-leed and think everyone should weigh in.

Any new developments here?  For now, are we still in the same place where GBCI is unofficially allowing v4 projects that are using v4.1 substitutions to exclude exterior windows and doors from the Wall Systems category?

Also following the thread here - any further clarifications on whether exterior windows, doors, curtainwall are excluded from the v4.1 Wall Systems category?

Following up on this thread a bit later - is anyone aware of whether or not Dave's guidance above has been made official? Can v4 projects substituting for v4.1 exclude doors and windows from the walls category?

I woud like to know how this has evolved too.