Subscribe to new posts about Post a new question about

Forum discussion

blow-out fixtures

Pablo Fortunato Suarez

Principal ESD Consultant/Architect

GreenArc Sustainable Building & Architecture

LEEDuser Basic Member

170 thumbs up

July 20, 2010

Post a reply

Dan Ackerstein

Principal

Ackerstein Sustainability, LLC

LEEDuser Expert

545 thumbs up

Tue, 08/03/2010 - 16:50

1) Fixtures are fixtures, regardless of their design. The real question is 'How much water are you using to flush a toilet?' etc... The path the water takes to accomplish the flush or the technology utilized is basically irrelevant. 2) IPC/UPC baselines still apply. 3) Determining compliance with the prerequisite is based on a combination of all your fixtures and the sum total water they use. So a building can certainly have a toilet that uses more water than IPC/UPC allows if that water use is compensated by urinals, faucets, etc... that use amounts less than IPC/UPC limits to make up the difference. There is no requirement that each fixture meet IPC/UPC standards - only that the total water used by all fixtures is less than 120%/160% of what would be used if all fixtures WERE IPC/UPC compliant.

Pablo Fortunato Suarez

Principal ESD Consultant/Architect

GreenArc Sustainable Building & Architecture

LEEDuser Basic Member

170 thumbs up

Wed, 08/11/2010 - 18:01

Thank you Dan. I went ahead and inputted the blow-out fixtures. The default value in the template matches the actual consumption of the fixture. The default value apparently meets IPC/UPC standards. I've actually researched if there are blow-out fixtures that consume less gallons per flush, and as of late, there are commercially available fixtures, as well as newly-patented ones. In some of our own fixtures, it's the flush mechanism that allows this (lesser consumption). cheers

Pablo Fortunato Suarez

Principal ESD Consultant/Architect

GreenArc Sustainable Building & Architecture

LEEDuser Basic Member

170 thumbs up

Mon, 01/10/2011 - 09:00

Need your help again. We've been advised to use the watercloset figures despite the fact that what is installed are blow-out fixtures. Doing so will cost us 5 points. My question: Do we just need to 1) clarify that the fixtures used are actual blow-out fixtures or 2) are we disqualified since blow-out fixtures consume more per flush?

Pablo Fortunato Suarez

Principal ESD Consultant/Architect

GreenArc Sustainable Building & Architecture

LEEDuser Basic Member

170 thumbs up

Mon, 01/10/2011 - 10:43

Based on the Uniform Plumbing Code 2006, blow-out toilets are allowed to consume 3.5 gpf, while in another table, flush-o-meter valve toilets should only consume 1.6 gpf. I'd like to get a clarification on which should be used since some define blow-out fixtures and flush valves (tank-less) as one and the same, and why UPC has a separate definition for each.

Pablo Fortunato Suarez

Principal ESD Consultant/Architect

GreenArc Sustainable Building & Architecture

LEEDuser Basic Member

170 thumbs up

Mon, 01/10/2011 - 10:51

Uniform Plumbing Code 2006 actually defines 1.6 gpf for all water-closet types (including flush-o-meter) and makes an exception for blow-out bowls (#3) for which the threshold is 3.5 gpf. Why are we being asked to use water closet minimum levels 1.6 gpf even though we are actually using blow-out fixtures?

Dan Ackerstein

Principal

Ackerstein Sustainability, LLC

LEEDuser Expert

545 thumbs up

Tue, 01/11/2011 - 16:35

Pablo - My impression on this, based on your questions and what (little) I know about this issue, is that there appear to be differing standards for the bowl and the valve (as a blow-out bowl must have a valve attached). I don't know why this would be, but if it is indeed the case, that would be vexing indeed. I can't provide an ironclad answer to this dilemma but it seems to me that you have 3 options: 1. Assume that the intent of the credit is to use a baseline consistent with those listed in the Reference Guide, which states that the standard amount of water required to flush a toilet of any kind is 1.6gpf, and make changes to your fixtures accordingly. 2. Bank on the blow-out bowl exception you have identified in the UPC document (I would confirm that it is found in the IPC as well) and carefully document it for the reviewer. 3. Submit a CIR to clarify and confirm the exception above. If this were my project, and #1 was prohibitively expensive or problematic, I would certainly recommend #3. Hope that helps a little, Dan ps I would welcome input from other forum users on this one - anyone else struggled with blowout fixtures?

Pablo Fortunato Suarez

Principal ESD Consultant/Architect

GreenArc Sustainable Building & Architecture

LEEDuser Basic Member

170 thumbs up

Tue, 01/18/2011 - 07:19

Hello Dan, Both IPC and UPC mention that maximum rate for blow-out type bowls is 3.5 gpf. We have documentation that the bowl used is blow-out type. Will LEED be more interested in the bowl or flush mechanism? The old bowls run on 3.5 gpf, whereas newer bowls (replaced over time) run on 1.6 gpf since the newer bowls are able to flush effectively at this rate. Kindly advise.

Pablo Fortunato Suarez

Principal ESD Consultant/Architect

GreenArc Sustainable Building & Architecture

LEEDuser Basic Member

170 thumbs up

Tue, 01/18/2011 - 07:36

related to this, old fixtures will not flush effectively if the flushing mechanism used is less than 3.5. How do we accomplish the forms? - do we claim both old and new 'blow-out' and use 3.5 gpf as baseline or - do we separate the old as 'blow-out' and use "water closet" for the new w/ 1.6 gpf capacity and flushing mechanism even though it is a blow-out bowl?

Pablo Fortunato Suarez

Principal ESD Consultant/Architect

GreenArc Sustainable Building & Architecture

LEEDuser Basic Member

170 thumbs up

Thu, 01/20/2011 - 18:25

Hi Dan, From the 3 options you gave, 1) suppose we take option 2. If the argument is not found in our favor, do we lose all points in the category since this is a pre-requisite, or will it be accepted and just be given less points for the related credit (WEc1?) 2) How long does it take to get a response to a CIR? We are due to submit in a couple of weeks.